[Moto3] Bakker

je pense qu'on vva pouvoir commencer a creer des post pour chaque modele , comme pour les moto2..

voila donc la Bakker moto3. (on ne va pas presenter bakker ..... [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] )
moteur suzuki 250 RMz
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Citation :

Moto3 Motorcycle

Two-stroke motorcycle engines are losing ground around the global. In a world moving swiftly toward a 'green' environment, powerful engines are even becoming rare in the world of GP motorcycle racing.

Where the 2-stroke lose ground, the 4-stroke engine gains. Equally through the introduction of the Moto2 600cc class the 4-stroke engines continue to expand their presents on the racetracks around the globe.

The fact is that the Moto2 class requires a smaller budget than the GP 125cc class, which is substantial as evident by the number of teams on the Moto2 grid during the 2010 MotoGP season.

For the motorcycle riders yet another alternative has come into existence, formed by a new MotoGP class replacing the existing GP 125cc 2-stroke series, the Moto3 series.

For 2012, the Moto3 class rules has moved to motorcycles equipped with a 250cc 4-stroke power source. This offers the opportunity to participate in motorcycle racing but with an even more reasonable budget.

Moto3 rules will allow a single cylinder 250cc 4-stroke engines with a maximum bore of 81 mm. The Moto3 rules also state that the engine should last for 3 races minimum and cost not more than $15,000 USD (final cost will be announced).

Each Moto3 chassis manufacturer should be ready to supply a minimum of 15 riders. This rule change has given Nico Bakker Framebouw B.V. the opportunity to develop a track bike in search of global attention.

The result is the Bakker RM-Z250R, a 82 kg (180 lbs.) motorcycle with a Suzuki power source. If desired, the Bakker can be equipped with an engine make of your choice.

Of course the Bakker Moto3 motorcycle will also suit a 250cc Honda engine. The rolling chassis is provided with a adjustable ball head, as well as an adjustment for the position of the rear swing arm.

Team Slooten Racing, with rider Brian Slooten is the first team select the Bakker RM-Z250R.

In 2010 they participated with the bike in the Open Dutch Championship (ONK) 125cc, the German IDM 125cc, and the UEM Supermono Cup. Due to the successes in 2010, this racing agenda will be continued in 2011.

Elle me plait (en plus, j'ose pas trop le dire, je suis un "habitué" de Suzuki...)

disons qu'elle ait un peut 'clone aprilia rsw"

ça serait quand meme sympa si le moto 3 permettrait de voir sur la grille du suzuki,Tm,honda,Husaberg husqvarna,yam,Ktm,kawa et pourquoi pas BMW (ils ont bien un 450)

les infos sont aussi sur ce site où on trouve aussi pas mal de cancans

/http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/bakker-rmz250r-moto3/

Je ne veux pas être rabat-joie mais je ne considère pas cette "vieille chose" (sur le forum depuis au moins 6 mois) comme une vraie Moto3 car n'ayant pas un ensemble moteur/boîte conçu spécifiquement pour les GP (tout comme la Moriwaki, d'ailleurs).

Une sorte de Moto3 de seconde zone (disons les championnats nationaux) qui, selon toute vraisemblance, ne répondra ni au réglement GP, ni aux performances requises pour y être compétitive.

Dans ces conditions, sans doute vaut-il mieux attendre encore un peu avant de nous lancer dans une multitude de topics que l'on abandonnera peu à peu en cours d'année.

Non?

Où alors, on oublie le moteur Suzuki de cross et on ne s'intéresse qu'au châssis...

I agree with Marc , we have not yet seen a true Moto3 In fact I think we will have to wait a bit longer to see how this unfolds . Out of curiousity we have built a 250cc 4t single but only with an MX engine which has proved quite promising. Alas I'm not fooling myself that It's a
Bona fide Moto3.

a premiere vue, ils peuvent deja revoir leur bras oscilliant
on dirait le bras d'une 125 cbr

faudrait verifier mais on dirait un vieux cadre de rsw
genre 2000/2002

en meme temps, a part la honda NRS , il n'y a pas d'autre moto3 ou plutôt moteur spécial moto3 disponible..

alors la categorie doit elle s'appeler NRS world championship ou moto3 world championship
???????????????

moi je suis a fond pour les bitza..ça permet au moins de voir plusieurs marques de moteur rapidement en tapant dans les cross ( en changeant la boite de vitesse)
si le moto2 avait dut avoir un moteur 600 sur mesure ..alors les cout auraientt egalement explosés et on aurait vu beaucoup moins de chassis/constructeur ..

Pourquoi s'embeter à faire un nouveau cadre, avec une technologie qui semble dater des années 2000 ??

pourquoi on ne prend pas ce qui marche déjà, genre un cadre apprilia d'usine ou ktm, on met un moteur de cross à peine plus gros qu'un bloc 2 temps et c'est parti ! ???

Est ce que j'ai loupé quelque chose dans ce raisonnement ?

Catastrofik a écrit:

pourquoi on ne prend pas ce qui marche déjà, genre un cadre apprilia d'usine ou ktm, on met un moteur de cross à peine plus gros qu'un bloc 2 temps et c'est parti ! ??? Est ce que j'ai loupé quelque chose dans ce raisonnement ?

A four-stroke engine the size of an Aprilia RSA125 would give about 20 hp....
I have a better idea: bring back the 50s. Dorna will disagree? Then let's have a class with 125 cc single-cylinder engines with 6 gears. Two-strokes and four-strokes allowed, so Honda can prove how good they are at competing with two-strokes instead of exterminating them...
What? do we already have such a class?? Wonderful....

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Great idea Frits!


But, what about frame ?
don't you think that all teams should use existing parts instead of building and spending money for something new but no more efficient ?

some people can call it recycling, other people call it pragmatism

I think everybody should be free to realize their own ideas, regarding both engine and frame. It is ridiculous to restrict technical development. Let the engineers search for new solutions and let the team managers search for the money; not the other way around.
I see it happening in Formula 1: it is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport, but nowadays the rule makers tell the engineers what engine bore to use, the cylinder angle, the maximum rpm, how high the crankshaft should be above the ground....
To save money? Don't make me laugh...

Bonjour,
Entièrement d'accord, avec Super kart !

J'ai bien peur que l'on passe d'une situation de monopole à une autre !
Honda va il commercialiser des moteurs seul, et à quel prix ?

Si c'est le maxi permis par le règlement !!!!!

A titre d'exemple Kawasaki 250 KXF 2011 injection 6499€ ttc la moto, CRF 250 2011 7690€ ttc, il reste de la marge pour faire une boite, sachant que la partie cycle neuve peut être revendue facilement a des pilotes de moto cross !

Quant au châssis si le moteur rentre de dedans pas de problème, il suffit de voir ce qu'Olivier à fait,intégration parfaite d'un CRF dans le châssis RS Honda !

Le bras oscillant de la Baker, je ne le trouve pas si mal, voir bras JBB 1000 Suzuki

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Frits Overmars a écrit:

I think everybody should be free to realize their own ideas, regarding both engine and frame. It is ridiculous to restrict technical development. Let the engineers search for new solutions and let the team managers search for the money

i agree but in 99% of cases, bikes are quite the same.. look the test made by mamola, in moto2, there are not much differences between bikes... so why spend money to build your own frame if, finally all bike use the same technology ?? i would use an existing competitive frame
what you say is true with team like tecmas who really want to improve by research and developement...

and the price argument is not from me but from the Dorna !

In my opininion if you want to save money you don't change 2 strokes bikes to 4 strokes, you just take some decisions to break the monopolistic behavior of Apprilia...

Catastrofik a écrit:

what you say is true with team like tecmas who really want to improve by research and developement...

That is exactly what I want to promote.

Citation :

and the price argument is not from me but from the Dorna !

I did not want to suggest it was yours.

Citation :

In my opininion if you want to save money you don't change 2 strokes bikes to 4 strokes, you just take some decisions to break the monopolistic behavior of Apprilia..

What monopolistic behaviour of Aprilia? Did Aprilia tell Honda, KTM and all the other manufacturers to stop competing in the 125 and 250 cc classes?

Frits Overmars a écrit:

Did Aprilia tell Honda, KTM and all the other manufacturers to stop competing in the 125 and 250 cc classes?

No you're definitely right, but like all monopolistic companies, Aprillia, because of any competitors, was free to fix high prices, i think with all new formula (moto2 and now moto3) Dorna tries to avoid high entry level prices ?

Apparently, with technical superiority of Aprilia, Honda and others manufacturers needed the help of the Dorna to come back ?
By giving technical limitations, Dorna breaks indirectly the monopole of aprilia, that was i would say. The gap between apprilia and other is such big that Dorna needed to break it


that's an interesting debate but sorry i think i'm really out of subject now :)

Frits Overmars a écrit:

Catastrofik a écrit:

what you say is true with team like tecmas who really want to improve by research and developement...

That is exactly what I want to promote

In the Bakker's moto3 case my way of thinking is : "if u don't make improvements and innovations compared to existing frames, or something better or radically different, don't spend your time and your money with building a frame"

please to correct me if i'm wrong :)

i really admire your knowledge Frits, so please, tell me what you think of Bakker moto3 ?

i know that's esthetics doesn't prove anything but admit that their frame and the swingarm look very old fashioned !

by the way, No radial front brake ?

Catastrofik a écrit:

Apparently, with technical superiority of Aprilia, Honda and others manufacturers needed the help of the Dorna to come back ? By giving technical limitations, Dorna breaks indirectly the monopole of aprilia, that was i would say. The gap between apprilia and other is such big that Dorna needed to break it

I think Grand Prix racing should not only be a competition for the world's best riders, but also for the world's smartest technicians. But now Dorna tells Aprilia they will no longer be allowed to use all their possibilities because their machines are too fast for the competition (by the way, Dorna never interfered when the Honda NSR500 was winning year after year).

The next 'logical' step would be to give Rossi, Lorenzo and Stoner a 20 kg weight penalty because they are too fast for the competition.
Luckily we do not have to fear logical steps from Dorna. An example: in 2010 they introduced the xxx engines per season-rule to keep the cost down, and promptly had to prove it didn't work when they had to give dispensation to the company with the lowest budget...

Citation :

In the Bakker's moto3 case my way of thinking is : "if u don't make improvements and innovations compared to existing frames, or something better or radically different, don't spend your time and your money with building a frame"

If you are not capable of improving on existing technology, what do you expect to achieve in GP-racing? Just look at Suzuki.
There are lots of possibilities for affordable racing. In Holland we have the Honda NSF100-cup for kids from 10 to 15 years old. They grab an iginition key out of a pot, search the corresponding machine, and race. It is a great way of discovering talent (our riders finished 1st and 2nd in the 2010 european championship). But 40 kids in identical suits on identical machines sounding like lawn-mowers is not the best way to attract spectators...

I already used the example of motocross: 125 cc machines were replaced with 250 cc four-strokes. Today everybody in MX knows this was a mistake. Now Dorna is going to repeat exactly the same mistake in road racing. I fear that within a couple of years everybody in Moto3 wants to go back to the present 125 cc-class. But then it may have become a Honda-monopoly, like Moto2.
Aprilia will be forced out, like they have already been forced out of Moto2, and I do not expect KTM or any major company to return to Moto3 with production racers.
And there is always the real danger that some day Honda may pull out of racing. They recently did so in Formula 1 and they have done it before in motorcycle racing....

@Catastrofik: you wanted my opinion on the Bakker-Moto3. Well, the build-quality is good, like everything from Nico Bakker. But I have seen the bike in action in a Dutch 125-race: pathetic!
Not a chance, not even against amateur riders on 10 year-old Honda two-strokes...

Now please let me return to technical discussions; these politics make me feel sick...

Frits Overmars a écrit:

Now please let me return to technical discussions; these politics make me feel sick...

Off course, sorry for that and thx for ur opinion :)

I already used the example of motocross: 125 cc machines were replaced with 250 cc four-strokes. Today everybody in MX knows this was a mistake. Now Dorna is going to repeat exactly the same mistake in road racing. I fear that within a couple of years everybody in Moto3 wants to go back to the present 125 cc-class. But then it may have become a Honda-monopoly, like Moto2.
Aprilia will be forced out, like they have already been forced out of Moto2, and I do not expect KTM or any major company to return to Moto3 with production racers.
And there is always the real danger that some day Honda may pull out of racing. They recently did so in Formula 1 and they have done it before in motorcycle racing....




I fully agree with you!
you are not only good technician you're a good man!

Frits Overmars a écrit:

Catastrofik a écrit:

pourquoi on ne prend pas ce qui marche déjà, genre un cadre apprilia d'usine ou ktm, on met un moteur de cross à peine plus gros qu'un bloc 2 temps et c'est parti ! ??? Est ce que j'ai loupé quelque chose dans ce raisonnement ?

A four-stroke engine the size of an Aprilia RSA125 would give about 20 hp....
I have a better idea: bring back the 50s. Dorna will disagree? Then let's have a class with 125 cc single-cylinder engines with 6 gears. Two-strokes and four-strokes allowed, so Honda can prove how good they are at competing with two-strokes instead of exterminating them...
What? do we already have such a class?? Wonderful....

I agree with you, could you just have a chat with Ezpeleta and co??

superkart a écrit:

Two-stroke motorcycle engines are losing ground around the global. In a world moving swiftly toward a 'green' environment, powerful engines are even becoming rare in the world of GP motorcycle racing.

Where the 2-stroke lose ground, the 4-stroke engine gains.

i want to see a diagramm where a moto2 or moto3 engine is putting out less emissions than the two-stroke counterpart.

r